New guy with a question

Thu, 15 Dec 2022 04:16:53 +0100

Hubzilla Support Forum

adminsforum@hubzilla.org

ray peaslee wrote the following post Thu, 15 Dec 2022 04:16:53 +0100

New guy with a question

Is there a difference between connections and channels? Thanks

show all 51 comments

Thu, 15 Dec 2022 04:49:06 +0100

Tanja

tanja@hz.lazyteddy.eu

Yes. The channel is you, connections are, well, the people you're connected to.

Thu, 15 Dec 2022 04:53:44 +0100

Crow

crow@commonworlds.org

Yes.

Forgive me if I get things wrong, but this is what I know: I have ONE Hubzilla account, and that account can Connect to other Accounts.

My Account has [I]multiple[/I] channels associated with it for all the various interests I want to use Hubzilla to explore: Photography, Politics, Gaming, and so on.

This enables [I]accounts[/i] to show different facets of themselves to different other accounts, who are also using various facets to connect. So photographers connect to my Photography channel and never have to hear about my #TTRPG, for example. At least if I manage my channels correctly.

So channels are rather like hats, in the "I wear a lot of different hats around here" sense.

Thu, 15 Dec 2022 05:29:29 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

The account is your login. Your first channel is created when you create an account and you can create additional channels. Channels can be a social media presence for a person, a public forum, a public channel, or something else.

Instead of following someone, you connect with them. The difference is a connection can be two ways. Both channels need to approve the connection for private posts and direct messages to be exchanged.

Sat, 17 Dec 2022 14:35:20 +0100

citc

citc@zotum.net

Unfortunately there are some bugs in that even if connections exist, content is not shared if hubzilla servers operate different versions of software. Otherwise, really good control of content is possible.

Sat, 17 Dec 2022 14:53:44 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

@citc Maybe that is why I'm having issues with some instances talking to other instances.

Sat, 17 Dec 2022 15:03:53 +0100

citc

citc@zotum.net

There appears to be little interest by the programmers, in the concept of compatibility and accessibility.
Of course, if there was better documentation, more people could have a start to think how they could participate, but again, hubzilla programmers appear think that documentation is beneath them.

Sat, 17 Dec 2022 15:21:50 +0100

Crow

crow@commonworlds.org

@citc I especially agree if you include the UI in the word "accessibility." I've spun up my own instance, lured friends on to it, struggled all along the way, and I still don't know how this software is actually supposed to be used, or what the vision is. HQ/Channel/Public Stream/Network Stream... all potentially great features but really, really hard to use.

Also seems to me there's too much emphasis on "give everyone all the options" and "pre-configure the user's experience so they aren't overwhelmed."

Sat, 17 Dec 2022 15:30:48 +0100

citc

citc@zotum.net

There needs to be documentation about the main software modules.
For example, 'hubzilla support forum' is not accessible to all hubzilla servers with different versions. Without documentation, it would be not known why without the usual programmer response: "upgrade". Why should a volunteer risk breakage of their server or host server installation, with insufficient documenation about the software version?
Another example, content posted on 'hubzilla contribute' is visible on some hubzilla servers, invisible on other servers. How to investigate why, without documentation?

Sat, 17 Dec 2022 16:52:48 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

@citc

There needs to be documentation about the main software modules.

I agree. As far as a Hubzilla website redesign and additional documentation, some of us have started working on it, but it will take some time.

About upgrading and information about the new versions, I know posts go out about these updates. Are you not receiving them?

Sat, 17 Dec 2022 17:04:20 +0100

citc

citc@zotum.net

The information is not sufficiently detailed. The absence of any software quality assurance also does not inspire to administer a web server.

Sat, 17 Dec 2022 19:19:11 +0100

citc

citc@zotum.net

Would like to see an invitation for participants in QA tests team priror to release.

Sat, 17 Dec 2022 22:57:24 +0100

Crow

crow@commonworlds.org

@ray peaslee "It's free and there's a ton of documentation in the docs folder & online. It's like learning any new skill, it takes time"

This is frankly a **terrible** attitude to have for a piece of software that hopes to get wide adoption by people who are not technophiles.

I'm a very technical person who made my living by understanding tech. I've spun up many sites, know my way around a terminal. My skills are certainly in the top 5% of potential customers for Hubzilla.

And I find it awkward, not friendly, overly complex, confusing, and unhelpful. Have you noticed that **almost everyone** who uses it lists "Linux" as one of their interests? Hubzilla is going GREAT if all you want for a user base is 50+year old white dudes who like installing Arch for a weekend project.

If Hubzilla wants to have any *real* success though, the devs need to start thinking about User Interface, clear purpose, and ease of onboarding. I've been using the software daily for a month now, and any time I need to do something new I need to ask a question in @Hubzilla Support Forum

Sun, 18 Dec 2022 12:34:35 +0100

Mike Macgirvin

mike@macgirvin.com

As a developer, I expect unit tests and automatic functional tests.
I can't find any.

Maybe under 'tests'?

Sun, 18 Dec 2022 14:43:50 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

I do notice that some hubs are running the pre-release version before it is officially released, I assume to test it out first. So there appears to be some sort of testing going on before release.

Perhaps what is needed is for invitations to be sent out concerning beta testing.

Sun, 18 Dec 2022 15:03:43 +0100

Witcraft (Hubzilla)

witcraft@hubzilla.fediversum.de

@Scott M. Stolz No beta, anybody who wants can do that. All you have to do is to switch your hub with a simple git command to dev branch and just run it - I would not do that regularly with my production instance, though, as things can break.

Sun, 18 Dec 2022 21:03:04 +0100

Mike Macgirvin

mike@macgirvin.com

> Perhaps what is needed is for invitations to be sent out concerning beta testing.

There is an announcement of every Hubzilla RC (release candidate) and an open test period until the release passes muster. Anybody may participate in testing and are actively encouraged to do so during this time. If you're not getting these messages, ping @Mario Vavti.

Sun, 18 Dec 2022 22:13:31 +0100

Mike Macgirvin

mike@macgirvin.com

I've recently been using lando for quickly spinning up test instances on my laptop. It's a little weak when it comes to testing federation aspects and I've written about that (as well as some workarounds) elsewhere, but it's a nice tool to have and I use it a **lot**. For federation or pre-production testing, nothing beats a dedicated test site with its own ssl cert.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 01:47:58 +0100

Mike Macgirvin

mike@macgirvin.com

So 8 months ago somebody lifted a finger to help, without blaming "the developers" for volunteering their time and effort to improve the software; and without trolling the forum spreading lies and misinformation in order to divide the community.

QED indeed.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 02:51:12 +0100

Mike Macgirvin

mike@macgirvin.com

I'm pretty sure all new Hubzilla developments are tested because I know Mario. If they aren't tested to your satisfaction, I can't change that. I wonder who will come along that knows how to write automated tests and wants to help out. Any hands?

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 03:12:00 +0100

Crow

crow@commonworlds.org

@mike Dude, take a breath.

It is, believe it or not, just barely possible there are people who want something like Hubzilla, but, you know, [I]easy to understand and use,[/I] who are not developers and barely know how to spell "git."

If devs can't hear heartfelt commentary from people like that without getting their backs up, they're never going to get people like that to use their software. And if that's the goal, well then, change its name to HubOldWhiteLinuxAdmins.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 03:19:06 +0100

Malendur

malendur8944@hub.art3mis.de

@Mike Macgirvin Look that commit: #^https://framagit.org/hubzilla/core/-/commit/6e881bcef2633e3ac573b023dd898639e3a0f452 It's an important change in business rules. But no test updated. That means that it isn't tested. That means also that there is no garanty that Mario didn't forget a change somewhere (the huge numer of duplication code (you can see it in that commit) is another issue of Hubzilla's code).

Anyway, as soon as Hubzilla code is refactored using a modern framework (as announced by Mario), I could help for unit tests. By the way, you should also use Infection for Mutation Testing (I don't think there is any currently).

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 03:30:48 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

@Malendur You can test code before releasing it. Installing a dev release would allow you to test it.

And I always notice that some hubs do run pre-release version. So the code is, in fact, being tested before released.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 03:54:43 +0100

Malendur

malendur8944@hub.art3mis.de

@Scott M. Stolz I'm talking about automatic testing, not manual testing.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:22:47 +0100

Einer von Vielen

einer@digitalesparadies.de

@Crow (crow@commonworlds.org) Do you get kids by talking or having sex? Same applies to Hubzilla.

Why don't you write some test yourself if you are "a very technical person who made my living by understanding tech". Proof it! (It has nothing to do with age, I guess, just will and brain involved in this task.)

It might even be more fun doing something rather than talking.

Same with sex. The circle closes here.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 11:49:27 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

@hubzillar

Anyway, at least there things going on behind the scenes. Not sure why other participants are not welcome.

People are welcome to contribute. Most of us just picked something we want to work on. For example, I am working on documentation and themes.

So, yes, you are welcome. How do you want to contribute?

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 13:03:37 +0100

Einer von Vielen

einer@digitalesparadies.de

Will 'localhost' suffice for installation onto a portable computer?

yes.

Suggestion: Create a virtual machine (for example under KVM) and install Debian stable. Then install Hubzilla under localhost. Install xdebug and Netbeans (for example) if you want to debug.

There is a script for an automated installation of Streams. This will install Streams unter localhost if you edit server-config.txt ...

1. db_pass=your-pass
2. le_domain=localhost
3. webserver=apache (or nginx, I personally use )

and then run server-setup.sh and visit http://localhost

Recommended: Disable registration via email before you register the first user

cd /var/www/mywebsite/
util/config system verify_email 0

There is an outdated install script for Hubzilla too, .homeinstall. This is will be updated to the version of Streams, https://codeberg.org/streams/streams/src/branch/dev/.easyinstall in January/February hopefully.

As @Mike Macgirvin (mike@macgirvin.com) pointed out there is the lando stuff. I did not try it myself but if he says it works I am pretty sure it will.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 13:50:37 +0100

Einer von Vielen

einer@digitalesparadies.de

Seems that the "hubzilla user base" (ahem!) touched some nerves

in case that was pointed into my direction. No, I am no core dev at all. May be I am just not used to these Twitter style of "conversations".

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:14:15 +0100

Mario Vavti

mario@hub.somaton.com

@Malendur

Anyway, as soon as Hubzilla code is refactored using a modern framework (as announced by Mario)

Where and when did i announce this?

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:37:07 +0100

Crow

crow@commonworlds.org

@Einer von Vielen You totally just proved my point. typical elitist linux head. I'm not a coder. I know I wouldn't be good at being a coder.

Your analogy falls apart because, believe it or not, **HUBZILLA CAN'T BE SUCCESSFUL IF THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO USE IT ARE LINUX ADMINS COMFORTABLE WITH CODING.**

Try being helpful, or at least understanding what the target audience for broad adoption is.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:02:28 +0100

Einer von Vielen

einer@digitalesparadies.de

HUBZILLA CAN'T BE SUCCESSFUL IF THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO USE IT ARE LINUX ADMINS COMFORTABLE WITH CODING

do you have a guess how many users of Hubzilla are "target audience" and how many are "typical elitist linux heads"? Just give a number!

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:33:14 +0100

Crow

crow@commonworlds.org

This poorly laid out site #^https://the-federation.info/hubzilla suggests that the ENTIRE Hubzillaverse is smaller than one mid-tier Mastodon server. But the site has such poor explanations that I don't know if that's truly a comprehensive survey.

The number of current users really doesn't matter, because even if there are millions of users, I can't find them:

When I go to the "view friend suggestions" nearly *every single person* is a linux head. When I found an interesting profile in the FIRST ten results, that profile hadn't posted in more than two years.

Hubzilla is a ghost town filled with ghosts who debate whether Arch is better than Ubuntu. And that's because the software is end user unfriendly. Nearly end user hostile.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 16:08:48 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

One of my goals with Neuhub is to include an installer that doesn't require the end user to use a command line.

Mike created an update button in Streams that'll run the update script, so I know it's possible to still use git and make it user friendly.

Apparently, Streams has an outdated install script.

And I think Ray was playing around with an installation script too.

Since Streams focuses solely on decentralized community & social media features, and Hubzilla is actively reducing the number of features to maintain in core, I think that Hubzilla and Streams will eventually wind up being the infrastructure software and other software will be built on top of them.

That's why I am building Neuhub and other software that will run on top of Hubzilla and Streams. It won't be just themes. I have entirely different use cases than Hubzilla and Streams, which means my software needs to be maintained separately.

I'm building a recipe database for my mother, I'll eventually port my personal planner software (that I built) to run on Hubzilla, I'll create software so people can sell courses, and am already building a knowledge base software. All built on top of Hubzilla or Streams.

Being user-friendly to non-coders is an important discussion to have, but getting frustrated over it won't help. I see the potential in this software so I'm building upon it. Literally. I'm writing code.

But I'm a person who tries to get along with people and create alliances. So instead of complaining or forking Hubzilla or Streams, I am choosing to make compatible software, and choose to give back to Hubzilla and Streams where I can. If there is another compatible fork, I'll support that too.

Plus this plays into the whole idea of decentralization. People working together and collaborating instead of creating a giant conglomerate.

So, Neuhub will eventually make (or I will recruit someone to make) a browser-based installation and update system. It might use git as it's engine, it might use something else.

Steams and Hubzilla will focus on their core competencies and I'll focus on building compatible software for them.

This might be a controversial statement, but I view Streams and Hubzilla as more of a framework than a platform. And since they are closer to being a framework, they are suitable for building different types of platforms.

Continuing that analogy, I think a lot of the frustration is people expect a platform but are getting a framework instead.

So part of it is setting expectations and also providing user-friendly interfaces that sit on top of Hubzilla and Streams.

Hopefully I didn't step on anyone's toes. My goal is to collaborate and support this technology and build some great stuff for the community.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 20:29:37 +0100

Einer von Vielen

einer@digitalesparadies.de

Apparently, Streams has an outdated install script.

No, it works well and was tested recently, see this one https://codeberg.org/streams/streams/src/branch/dev/.easyinstall

What is outdated is is the install script of Hubzilla, see this one https://framagit.org/hubzilla/core/-/tree/master/.homeinstall

I will port the Streams version to Hubzilla as soon as I will port an addon from Streams to Hubzilla. (I have to because I will need to debug the addon under localhost in a vm.) But for the moment I am still implementing the Streams version. Basically almost all is implemented but it needs more testing in the "wild".

Back to the installation script: Beside the installation itself it creates a cron job that will update the server every day (util/udall and apt-get... and letsencrypt certificate).

We could talk directly (audio/video call) if you need more details on the install scripts. This might be more effective than writing.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 20:55:10 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

@Einer von Vielen

We could talk directly (audio/video call) if you need more details on the install scripts. This might be more effective than writing.

That sounds good. I know it may sound selfish, but I would like to give users the option to install Neuhub and perhaps some other scripts I am writing. Basically give people a customized install experience.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 21:51:46 +0100

Einer von Vielen

einer@digitalesparadies.de

@Mike Macgirvin (mike@macgirvin.com)

Complaints have been made that it provides the wrong PHP version for the Streams repository, which requires PHP 8.0 or above. In case of difficulty, this would be the first thing to check. If you manage to fix the issue, please submit back to the repository so we can remove this warning.

It does not need a fix. The proof: I used it a couple of days ago.

What does break things is if apt-get upgrade upgrades PHP8.1 to PHP8.2. But this has nothing do to with the script. The warning could be removed, see above.

Both of my Streams servers where installed be the script and Streams runs and runs and runs. I use the script to install Streams in VMs (localhost) from time to time and this gives no problems as well.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 21:54:46 +0100

Einer von Vielen

einer@digitalesparadies.de

https://codeberg.org/streams/streams/src/branch/dev/unsupported/easyinstall did install PHP8.2 last week on a fresh Debian stable 11.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 22:18:51 +0100

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

I wish these issues could be handled with less ill-temper. I've been hanging around the Hubzilla/Zap/Streams part of the Fediverse for a few years, and it's like...

5x per year: "There's not enough documentation! There are bugs!" "So, help the developers by writing documentation and reporting bugs." "No, I'm not a programmer, I can't." (Continued discussion focused on technical issues. No docs produced.)

1 or 2x per year: "Here, I wrote a first draft of documentation for new users. Any suggestions?" (Followed by a few 'likes', no suggestions, and within a few months nobody can find the contributed docs, or even remembers that they were contributed.)

Feels like Groundhog Day. We ought to be able to get past this.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 22:22:25 +0100

Mike Macgirvin

mike@macgirvin.com

Perhaps both people tried to install on some other Debian flavour or maybe Ubuntu. I don't know. Since nobody filed an issue and it has scrolled away in my stream without further explanation I can only make guesses. I'll try it when I get a chance (maybe after the weekend) on a few different base platforms and see if I can shed any light on the issue.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 22:22:39 +0100 last edited: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 22:32:14 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

Looking at the options, it looks like the gap is an installer for shared hosting or dedicated servers running WHM/cPanel or Plesk. I can't use the easyinstall script on a cPanel server, for example. cPanel already has CentOS (or another OS), Apache, PHP, MySQL, and Let's Encrypt installed.

We have:

Easy Install for people technical enough to run their own server or VPS.
Command line install for people who have git and command line access.

Neither of those are as simple as a WordPress 5 minute install.

Softaculous does have an installer, but there are issues with it, since Hubzilla uses git to update itself.

So, a shared hosting installer is where the gap is.

Or more accurately, the issue is that the update scripts only work if you installed it with git. Installing Hubzilla without git is actually not that hard.

Mon, 19 Dec 2022 23:00:29 +0100

Mike Macgirvin

mike@macgirvin.com

> Or more accurately, the issue is that the update scripts only work if you installed it with git. Installing Hubzilla without git is actually not that hard.

You've missed the point. Installation is a one time thing and if you encounter difficulties, you'll either work through them or toss the software. Absolutely nothing we can do will change that. Upgrade happens over the entire lifetime of the software and it needs to be perfect. The last thing you need is a bricked site because the upgrade failed and this is serious stuff because now all your content is bricked. This is also legendary in the WordPress world as well as NextCloud and many others. Drupal upgrades are so fraught with risk and involve so much effort that hardly anybody does it anymore.

This is why we went with git.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 00:01:30 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

Let me explain it another way. I'm not talking about how you accomplished it on the back end. Quite frankly, I think your work is brilliant. The issue I am bringing up is the user experience. You can have the most brilliant backend in the world, but most people won't use it if they have an uncomfortable user experience.

So ideally, there would be an install method that uses git, but doesn't require the command line.... like your git update button.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 00:21:50 +0100

Crow

crow@commonworlds.org

@ray peaslee CPanel at my web host had Hubzilla, but the install script errored out. I was only able to get it installed by relying on my web host to do it.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 00:40:50 +0100

Einer von Vielen

einer@digitalesparadies.de

@Mike Macgirvin (mike@macgirvin.com)

Perhaps both people tried to install on some other Debian flavour or maybe Ubuntu

The sanity check is outdated

    if [ -z "$(grep 'Linux 10\|Linux 11' /etc/issue)" ]
    then
        die "Debian 11 (bullseye) or Debian 10 (buster) are supported only"
    fi

Should allow Debian 11 only.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 01:41:16 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

@ray peaslee Do you have a direct link or instructions? I am not sure where to look in core.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 02:56:39 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

@ray peaslee I'm familiar with how to install it. I was talking about making a script that does the following:

Asks the user some questions.
Clones Hubzilla core via git.
Sets file permissions and initial configuration.
Adds the Hubzilla addons repo via git.
Adds the Neuhub repos via git.
Adds the KIMS repos via git (if selected in step 1)
Adds the Catalyst repos via git (if selected in step 1)
Configure Neuhub, KIMS, and Catalyst based on user input in step 1.
Send the user to the existing Hubzilla install script.

Or something similar.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 07:54:34 +0100

Mike Macgirvin

mike@macgirvin.com

Thanks. I've fixed that and moved it to 'contrib'.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 11:13:17 +0100

Einer von Vielen

einer@digitalesparadies.de

@Crow (crow@commonworlds.org)

CPanel at my web host had Hubzilla, but the install script errored out.

Yes, the Hubzilla version of the script is outdated. Correct. That is was I was trying to say. I will fix this in January (if nobody has done it before).

The Streams version works well.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 11:21:30 +0100

Einer von Vielen

einer@digitalesparadies.de

@Scott M. Stolz (scott@scottstolz.com) You should take a look at the easyinstall of Streams. A year (?) ago @Papa Dragon (dragondaddy@zap.omtc.fr) added a "GUI installer" to the script" that sits on the shell script" . The "GUI installer" asks the user some questions, gives some hints. He uses whiptail, see https://codeberg.org/streams/streams/src/commit/db389e6ca6ff8a9926bb3632b9dc28e92894709c/contrib/easyinstall/easyinstall.sh.

Then it writes the config file and starts the script itself. You could build upon that. This might go in the direction you want to go? No need to edit config files anymore.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 12:21:40 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

@Einer von Vielen

a "GUI installer" to the script" that sits on the shell script" . The "GUI installer" asks the user some questions, gives some hints.

Thank you. That might be a good idea, because some of my code won't be in an addon or widget.

One of the reasons why I am able to churn out things like a recipe website and knowledge base software so fast is that I am using PHPRunner to build the backend and admin area. I can build a database and feature-rich interface in a couple of days. It would take months if I hand coded all of it, and some of it would be beyond my current skill level. The only thing I have to hand code is the Hubzilla modules and widgets that display the data within Hubzilla.

And PHPRunner has a security API, so I will be able to write code that detects if someone is logged in or remotely authenticated with Hubzilla, and automatically log them into the PHPRunner side. If I match up the look & feel, users won't even notice.

So that might be why some of my requests sound weird. I am using fast development tools to roll out custom websites faster.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 15:44:39 +0100

Crow

crow@commonworlds.org

@Rhrwllnrtr (Streams) got a link to Streams? That word is impossible to search and get a targeted result.

Tue, 20 Dec 2022 15:54:50 +0100

Scott M. Stolz

scott@hubzilla.monster

@Crow

got a link to Streams?

#^https://codeberg.org/streams/streams