-

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 07:29:53 +0200

adminsforum@hubzilla.org

oxygen-cat wrote the following post Wed, 01 Sep 2021 07:29:52 +0200

Beginner Questions

* What is the difference between zap and hubzilla? Wikipedia doesn't have much information about hubzilla and derivatives.

* How can I install zap manually? There is no documentation on installation.

* Is decentralized identifiers going to be assimilated into activitypub and zot protocol?

* Is there any activitypub or zot implementation that behaves like hubzilla or friendica and is not written in PHP? I don't like PHP because I don't like dealing with php.ini

show all 29 comments

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 08:09:12 +0200

Tanja

tanja@hz.lazyteddy.eu

The main difference from a user perspective is that Zap focuses on the social media part, whereas Hubzilla has tools that allows to set up a full website. It's more complicated than that, and there are other differences even to the social media part of Hubzilla, but I'm not the right person to explain all of them, especially since I'm mostly using Hubzilla.
Sure there is:
#^https://codeberg.org/zot/zap/src/branch/release/install/INSTALL.txt
Not sure what you mean by "decentralized identifiers", but if you mean nomadic identity, the answer for ActivityPub is "most likely not", and Zot is where it came from in the first place.
All Zot implementations use PHP. There are, of course, plenty of AP based Fediverse servers, but you would have to be a little more specific about what kind of behavior you expect. One thing you most certainly won't get is Zot's access control functions. Also, what is it that you don't like about it?
From my personal experience I can tell you that non-PHP based Fediverse servers are often a true pain in the butt to maintain and update. Actually, make that non-Zot servers, since Friendica isn't much better. With Hubzilla, Zap & co, all you need to do, as a rule, is call one script, and it pulls the new code and updates the database.

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 09:40:01 +0200

Tanja

tanja@hz.lazyteddy.eu

@oxygen-cat

Is it easy to host my own zot/activitypub instance on a tor onion domain?

I don't know enough about it, but my guess is no.

Doesn't friendica have its own access control functionality?

Sort of, but not as advanced.

I had maintained a gitea instance...

A) Gitea is not a Fediverse server, and b) of course it's easy to update anything if there's a package available in your system's repositories. I don't know of any Linux distro that provides repositories for any Fediverse server, and I don't think any of the projects even provide a Debian / Ubuntu repository (the most common), so you will always have to update manually.

What I don't like about PHP is php.ini which is shared by multiple PHP programs which may require conflicting php.ini settings.

You can mitigate that by using PHP-FPM. This way, you can create a system user for software that requires specialized settings, which will have its own php.ini. Done right, this setup can also significantly speed up your server.

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 09:49:27 +0200

Tanja

tanja@hz.lazyteddy.eu

@oxygen-cat

I don't like calling a shell script that I don't understand or didn't write. Such a script is 100% going to break my own personalized setup.

Sorry, missed this one.
All this script does is to execute git pull in the main directory and the addons directory, as far as I can tell. I'm no bash wizard, but it looks simple enough. It pulls for the main directory, and then executes the addon / theme / widget update scripts, which in turn also merely pull the code and, if necessary, update the symlinks. In order to install the addons when first installing, you already have to run a script.

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 10:28:22 +0200

oRx-Qx pirateradio

michal@node9.org

@oxygen-cat

- Zap focuses on ActivityPub compatibility and is the most advanced in this regard and it is the only system which allows AP contacts post to forum channels (send them DM which is repeated according to forum type privately or publicly).
- Hubzilla has wider set of protocol support (Diaspora etc.) and apps. But none of the non-Nomad protocol contacts can post to forums.

You can run Hubzilla/Zap in Docker containers, the docker-compose with proper configured PHP (FPM) is available and it has its own image which does not interfere with other things on the server. The same way you can run Ruby things etc.

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 10:44:34 +0200

Max Kostikov

kostikov@zotum.net

@oxygen-cat

Scripts don't have intelligence

Rest assured, Hubzilla uses very intelligent scripts. "I guarantee it." :sunglasses:

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 10:50:14 +0200

Tanja

tanja@hz.lazyteddy.eu

@oxygen-cat

I prefer manual update and installation over scripted ones.

Well, you can always go into the main directory and then the extend/addons/hzaddons directory to manually execute git fetch and git pull. For the addons, you might have to check the symlinks in /addon afterwards. Your still done in no time at all. Updating Diaspora or Mastodon, as per their official manual install instructions, requires quite a few more steps. I didn't say it was difficult, just a pain in the butt compared to updating Hubzilla or Zap.

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 10:56:12 +0200

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

@oxygen-cat
you can even install HZ / ZAP on a shares host quid easy, if you don´t want to set up your own server - just copy the files to a directory, edit the .htconfig.php file, set up a cron job

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 18:09:35 +0200

Malendur

malendur8944@hub.art3mis.de

Is there any activitypub or zot implementation that behaves like hubzilla or friendica and is not written in PHP?

I'd love to. This would allow broader implementations.
My guess is that with stable and validated specs, developers could grab this project and implement the protocols in their favorite language.

What I don't like about PHP is php.ini which is shared by multiple PHP programs which may require conflicting php.ini settings.

Fear no more: this is not true for a very long time.

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 22:15:07 +0200

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

@Witcraft ture... for that you need to know about ssh... a lot of WP admins don´t know about it.

Updates without git could be done by replacing the HZ root folder and uploading the new files and preserving the original .htconfig.php file

Wed, 01 Sep 2021 22:28:42 +0200

hEARt PhoniX

tobias@hubzilla.rocks

@RockyIII and /store

Thu, 02 Sep 2021 09:15:37 +0200

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

@Witcraft looking forward to see this info page :-)

Mon, 06 Sep 2021 10:27:50 +0200

Mario Vavti

mario@hub.somaton.com

@Witcraft this is already possible in Hubzilla...

Mon, 06 Sep 2021 10:49:15 +0200

Mario Vavti

mario@hub.somaton.com

@RockyIII

actually is feature is very special, was broken recently and mike hat to work hart to get it working again...

Ok... Then there is a possibility that it does not work anymore in Hubzilla either at the moment...

Mon, 06 Sep 2021 12:13:27 +0200

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

@Mario Vavti so you are saying that is was working once also with HZ also?

Mon, 06 Sep 2021 12:20:20 +0200

Mario Vavti

mario@hub.somaton.com

@RockyIII i recall so yes...

Mon, 06 Sep 2021 12:33:24 +0200

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

@Mario Vavti OK - since i tried and tested it - it was not really working...

Mon, 06 Sep 2021 13:06:01 +0200

Malendur

malendur8944@hub.art3mis.de

Wikis benefit from federation. They're cloned, they're linked to posts and images, they can be shared, they can be edited with OWA rights...

Mon, 06 Sep 2021 14:16:57 +0200

oRx-Qx pirateradio

michal@node9.org

@oxygen-cat @Witcraft

As of file storage and calendars social features, I think Hubzilla is more advanced than Nextcloud, I dont know about Nextcloud groups/file access/calendars integration with their AP client app. AP does not even have the concept of channels, while Nomad protocol has integrated channels contact groups privileges with everything else.

Hubzilla concept of simplicity is in Apps, if somebody looks for simple social media system, they does not install (or admin can disable) Files , Wiki or Calendar apps.

Mon, 06 Sep 2021 15:40:34 +0200

Mario Vavti

mario@hub.somaton.com

@Michal Klodner i have just pushed a fix for this.

Mon, 06 Sep 2021 18:32:28 +0200

oRx-Qx pirateradio

michal@node9.org

@Mario Vavti WOW!

It works! The worlds are connected!

Tue, 07 Sep 2021 12:49:21 +0200

oRx-Qx pirateradio

michal@node9.org

@oxygen-cat Of course, it is a baseline Nomad feature, any site can serve you private content because it asks your home server if you are authenticated in your browser.

But you need user/group/channel management at such site, in Hubzilla/Zap it is a social feature that your contacts/groups are integrated with channels, at sites without decent Nomad core you would need to manually mantain user lists and update them. Maybe you could write LDAP server plugin for Hubzilla for that or whatever auth protocol your other site understands.

Tue, 07 Sep 2021 19:01:42 +0200

oRx-Qx pirateradio

michal@node9.org

@oxygen-cat I have no problem modify/delete comments and it is updated on the forum.

Permissions: Connections App and Edit button at the connection and then Individual permissions row

Tue, 07 Sep 2021 19:13:10 +0200

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

I haven't found a place to configure permissions

go to:

Settings > Channel settings > Security and Privacy Settings > Channel role and privacy (select - "Custom/Expert mode") > Channel Permission Limits

Tue, 07 Sep 2021 19:24:58 +0200

Mario Vavti

mario@hub.somaton.com

@RockyIII and remember that expert mode is called like that for a reason :wink:

Tue, 07 Sep 2021 20:27:14 +0200

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

remember that expert mode is called like that for a reason winking face

Ohhh... yes 😃

Tue, 07 Sep 2021 21:03:23 +0200

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

in "expert mode" you can tune things as you want but you have to be also careful - some settings can easily cause you some trouble... so for a beginner maybe is better to stick to the given templates for permission limits ...

on this diagram you get an idea what the templates stand for:

Image/photo

Wed, 08 Sep 2021 09:39:03 +0200

Mario Vavti

mario@hub.somaton.com

@oxygen-cat

Expert mode doesn't differentiate social and forum. What is going on?

Social- and Forum- just represent different presets of permission limits. Expert mode allows you to set/change those all by yourself. I strongly advise to abstain from expert mode except you know exactly what you are doing.

Wed, 08 Sep 2021 09:53:46 +0200

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

@oxygen-cat

Expert mode doesn't differentiate social and forum. What is going on?

"social" and "forum" are a given set of permission limits and other settings

in Expert mode you can basically rebuild also all settings given by the different templates for permission limits, or do variations ... just look at the diagram and make your setting in Expert mode accordingly or not ...

but better stick to the templates for now

Wed, 08 Sep 2021 09:57:39 +0200

RockyIII

rocky3@im.allmendenetz.de

@Mario Vavti post crossed ;-)